Latin language question
Could help me with a Latin title I want to use?
The title in English would be "Secrets of the Ichnographia Campo Marzio"
I want to use the words 'arcanus' and Piranesi's label of his large Campo Marzio plan, 'Ichnographiam Campi Martii'.
I've only studied Latin in high school, and that's over 25 years ago, so I'm taking a guess that the Latin title I'm looking for would be something like:
"Arcanum Ichnographiam Campi Martii"
Please let me know if I am at all correct, but, more to the point, what is correct if the above is not.
Thanks in advance,
I'm asking you because I noticed that you made note of the title "Encyclopedia Ichnographiam" as not being grammatically correct, and maybe even a mistake that Piranesi made. I used the word 'ichnographiam' because that is how Piranesi labels his large plan of the Campo Marzio. It never dawned on me that I was making a Latin grammatical error
Re: Latin language question
"Encyclopedia Ichnographiam" as not being grammatically correct
I was wondering just how long it would be before this got back to me from someone!
You will have vague memories from your high-school days (mine too are 30 years behind, alas, but I use Latin every day...) that Latin is an inflected language, that is, the same word may take any one of 7 cases, and must take the right one in each context. Ichnographiam is an "accusative", and is (99.5% of the time) a direct object. At any rate, I do hope Piranesi did not write Encyclopedia Ichnographiam since what is needed here is a genitive ("Encyclopedia OF the Ichnographia"), which would be: Encyclopedia Ichnographiae or, more happily Encyclopedia Ichnographica (adjective in the nominative, to agree with the noun)
...but if that's what he wrote, we're stuck with it. I've never seen the work other than its adaptation on your website, but I suspect that, if you picked up the title straight from Piranesi, he must have had it embedded in a sentence. For example, "I dedicate the Ichnographia of the Campus Martius to His Holiness." would be "Suae Sanctitati dedico Ichnographiam Campi Martii." etc. Yet the minute add in "Encyclopedia [of]", you *still* get the genitive back in: "Suae Sanctitati dedico Encyclopediam Ichnographiae Campi Martii."
I note however that a number of sites refer to the Piranesi work as Ichnographia Campi Martii--examples--and this other page, though not giving a full title, also refers to it in the nominative: John Wilton-Eli's homepage
If the error is not yours (in just sticking Encylopedia before an accusative you found in a sentence), I'm very puzzled by the whole thing...
At any rate, if you're starting afresh Secrets of the Ichnographia... will translate nicely as Arcana Ichnographiae Campi Martii
Hope this wasn't too confusing,
Re: Latin language question
Thanks a whole bunch for all the info and data you've sent. "Encyclopedia Ichnographiam" is indeed my mistake, not Piranesi's. Here's the full dedicatory label that Piranesi includes with his large plan:
ROBERTO ADAM BRITANNO ARCHITECTURAE - CULTORI ICHNOGRAPHIAM CAMPI MARTII ANTIQUAE URBIS JOANNES BAPTIATA PIRANESIUS IN SUI AMORIS ARGUMENTUM D D D
I can pretty much figure out what this translates into, but I'd be happy to see how it really translates.
I was never sucessful at finding Wilton-Ely on the web. Thanks for leading me there as well.
Re: Latin language question
Literal and ugly, but interlinear:
ROBERTO ADAM BRITANNO To Robert Adam, British ARCHITECTURAE - CULTORI honorer/cultivator/one-who-causes-to-grow of architecture ICHNOGRAPHIAM the Ichnography CAMPI MARTII of the Campus Martius ANTIQUAE URBIS or the ancient City JOANNES BAPTIATA [that should be BAPTISTA] PIRANESIUS Giovanni Battista Piranesi IN SUI AMORIS ARGUMENTUM as evidence of his affection D[ono] D D[edicavit] gave as a gift and dedicated
Putting things in English word order and more usual English:
TO ROBERT ADAM IN WHOM ARCHITECTURE FLOURISHES IN BRITAIN GIOVANNI BATTISTA PIRANESI GIVES AND DEDICATES THIS ICHNOGRAPHY OF THE CAMPUS MARTIUS OF ANCIENT ROME AS EVIDENCE OF HIS AFFECTION
Good luck with that CD
more on Piranesi's Campo Marzio
Thanks again for the Latin translation of Piranesi's dedication of the Ichnographia Campi Martii (if that is the correct way to refer to the large plan).
You mentioned that you are not familiar with Piranesi's full Il Campo Marzio Dell'antica Roma publication. While its engravings are recently (and nicely) reproducted in both Wilton-Ely's and Ficacci's (Taschen) Piranesi: Complete Etchings, the texts that Piranesi wrote have to my knowledge never been republished (except for a facsimile publication of Il Camp Marzio by Borsi, 1978(?)). The text is a history of the Campus Martius in both Latin and Italian, plus there is a list of extant ruins and a 'Catalogo', which is a bibliography of sorts -- what it does is list all the buildings that were in the Campo Marzio and matches them with their literary sources (both ancient and contemporary). Since I cannot read either Latin or Italian, the texts are for the most part inaccessible to me. [I have a photocopy of the texts which is from a microfilm copy of the original tome in the Library of Congress.] The 'Catalogo', however, is for the most part discernable to me, and thus onw of my greatest sources into finding out what Piranesi was really up to when he 'reconstructed' [I prefer reenacted] the Campo Marzio with the Ichnographia.
I am about to transcribe the 'Catalogo' (which is written in Italian) for inclusion within Arcana Ichnographiae Campi Martii. Would you be interested is a joint effort? That is, I could email you the Italian text and you could (I assume) make a decent translation into English. I think both the Italian and the English would be an excellent addition to Lacus Curtius. Even though I would like to include an English translation of the 'Catalogo' within the CD I'm working on, I see no problem with the same data being freely available online--there is much more on the CD, of which the 'Catalogo' will only be a small, albeit important part.
Here's some samples from the 'Catalogo':
CATALOGO DELLE OPERE DESCRITTE NELLA GRANDE ICNOGRAFIA DEL CAMPO MARZIO COLL'AGGIUNTA DEGLI AUTORI, E DE'MONUMENTI DA'QUALI SE N'E PRESA NOTIZIA
(that's the title)
Circo Apollinare di Domizia Furono dissotterrati diciotto anni fa le rovine di questo circo nel sito, ove l'abbiam delineato, ed ove son state dinotate dal Nolli nella sua pianta di Roma moderna. Di esse parla il Fulvio, ove dice: «i resta per anco fuori di porta Castello, in quelle vigne vicine, non lungi dalla mole Adriana una piccolo forma di un circo di pietra nera e dura quasi affatto rovinato.»
Aja di Marte nel Vaticano. «Cic. ad Attic., P. Vitt. nella Reg. XIV di Roma.»
(and here's one of my favorites, which I believe is close to what Lanciani write about the same subject)
Sepolcro di Maria moglie dell'imp. Onorio. Dal lib. 5 cap. 10 di Luc. Fauno delle antich. di Roma. «ochi anni fa, die'egli, nella cappella del Re di Francia, che è nella Chiesa di S. Pietro essendosi posto in esecuzione il disegno proposto dqa GiulioII, fu trovata una cassa di marmo, che da quanto vi è stato ritvovato, ben si vede essere stata il Sepolcro di Maria moglie dell'imperador Onorio. Niente vi rimaneva del di lei cadavere, eccettuatone i denti, i capelli ed i stinchi. Dell'abito poi perchè era tessuto d'oro, ne furono ricavate molte lubbre d'oro, mentre fu arso. Vi fu trovata una cassetta d'argento lunga un piede e mezzo, e alta un palmo, e molti altri vasi di crtallo, e di quella materia che si chiama agata, eccellentemente lavorati. Inoltre vi furon vi fu uno smeraldo, in cui era incisa una testa. Si crede che questa sia stata d'ornorio, stimata cinquecento zecchini d'oro. Vi era una bolla interziata di gemme, la quale avea queste lettere d'intorno, == Maria nostra florentissim. == Inoltre una laminetta d'oro con queste parole in Greco, == Michele, Gabriele, Raffaele, Uriele. == Fra gli altri orecchini, vezzi ed altri simili ornamenti di donne, che erano in quella cassetta, vi era una specie di groppo di smeraldi, e di varie gemme, e un ornamento di puro oro, che si chiama rizza. Oltre a ciò aveva la lunghezza di un palmo da un lato queste parole. DOMINO NOSTRO HONORIO, dell'altra DOMINA NOSTRA MARIA. Un sorce di pietra celidonia. Una conchiglia, ed una coppa di cristallo. Una palla d'oro rotonda similissima a quelle da giuocare, che facilmente poteva aprirsi, essendo divisa in due parti a guisa di noce. Innumerevoli altre gemme le quali sebben erano per la maggior parte guaste dall'antichità nondimeno alcune conservavano l'antico spendore come se fossero nuove e recenti.»
If this seems like a much too involved task, I completely understand. On the other hand, I think Piranesi's 'Catalogo' is perhaps one of the best kept "secrets" of 18th century topography/archaeology of ancient Rome.
All the best,
Re: more on Piranesi's Campo Marzio
Hello again Steve,
Well the excerpt you sent me point out the difficulties: uncertain text readings; Italian from various periods (back to the Renaissance in this case, but I'm sure we'll find medieval Italian as well); technical vocabulary. Still, it's not very difficult, just time-consuming and requiring great care.
I'm quite willing to help, and would be delighted to include the text and its English translation onsite; depending on just how much text there is ** that's a question! ** would trade you the rights to my translation for the permanent right use some (few) photos onsite as well, just enough to give a feel for the material.If the text is very extensive (i.e. over say 5000 words), since translation is a slow process (by profession, as you know, I'm a translator: industry speeds for quality product run to about 300 words an hour) and since you'll be selling it, we can negotiate something I'm sure -- you'll find me very reasonable. For comparison purposes, you'll find that rates for translation of technical material are in the range of 20c US a word. Anyway, here's a quickie:
CATALOG OF THE WORKS DESCRIBED IN GREAT ICHNOGRAPHY OF THE CAMPUS MARTIUS WITH ADDITIONS OF THE AUTHORS REFERRING TO IT AND THE MONUMENTS OF WHICH THEY TREAT
Circus Apollinaris of Domitia (sic: might this not be "Domizio": Domitian?) Eighteen years ago, the ruins of this circus were uncovered (typo in the Italian, either yours or printer's: dissotterrate) at the site where we show it, and where they have been noted by Nolli in his map of modern Rome. Fulvio [Orsini, I think] speaks of them, where he says: "There remains in addition outside the Porta Castello, in the nearby fields, not far from the Mole Adriana [this should be Hadrian's Mausolem] the shape of a small circus in hard black stone, pretty much ruined in fact."
Aja di Marte nel Vaticano. «ic. ad Attic., P. Vitt. nella Reg. XIV di Roma.»
[Ara?? =] Altar of Mars in the Vatican «ic. ad Attic., [P. Victor? I dont know who this is; it might be A. Vitt. = Aurelius Victor?? I'd have to look this up] in Rome, Reg. XIV.»
Sepulcher of Maria wife of the emp. Honorius. From bk. 5 ch. 10 of Luca Fauno on the antiq. of Rome. "A few years ago," he says, "in the chapel of the King of France which is in the Church of S. Peter's, as the [construction] project put forth by Julius II was being implemented, a marble chest was found, which, from what was found of it, appears clearly to have been the Sepulchre of Maria the wife of the emperor Honorius. There remained nothing in it of her corpse, except for her teeth, hair and shinbones [amusingly, that's pronounced "stinky"]. From her clothes, since they were woven of gold, were recovered many pounds [your text should have "libbre'] of gold, since they were incinerated [here the text reads ambiguously: either in Antiquity, or, and I give this an edge, by the discoverers]. A silver chest was found in it a foot and a half long and one palm high, and many vases of crystal and of that material called agate, excellently worked. In addition there were there was [sic] an emerald on which a head was engraved. It is thought that the head is that of Honorius, and is worth five hundred gold sequins. There was a seal inlaid with gems, that had these letters encircling it == Maria nostra florentissim. == In addition a thin gold plate with these words in Greek, == Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel. == Among the other earrings, necklaces and other women's ornaments in this chest, there was a kind of knot of emeralds a various gems, and an ornament of pure gold, called a "rizza". Furthermore on one side there were these words extending to one palm in length: DOMINO NOSTRO HONORIO; on the other DOMINA NOSTRA MARIA. A ["sorce": mouse??] of chelidonium [almost certainly: a specific type of agate with marking like tortoise-shell]. A shell, and a cup [,] of crystal. A round gold ball very much like those you play with, that could be very easily opened, divided into two compartments like a walnut. Innumerable other gems, most of which, however, were ruined by age, yet some retained their ancient splendor as if they were new and recent."
For "rizza" my dictionaries give "mariner's knot". In art history parlance, it is probably an entrelac, but this will be a problem word -- as usual with translation, the question is how far to translate; at the same time, I do not have a dictionary of Renaissance Italian and am not therefore certain that it might not have some altogether different meaning.
Re: more on Piranesi's Campo Marzio
Again thanks for the translations. I do not intend, however, to absuse your professional talent and kindness. Nonetheless, you appear to be ideal for this particular translation because of your knowledge of both ancient texts and ancient Rome's typography. I, on the other hand, know some of the 'tricks' Piranesi plays within the Ichnographia, therefore, a combined effort on our parts seems to harbor a very fruitful potential. For example, Piranesi deliniates a Circus of Domitia (a sister to Nero's father whose garden was in the area of the later Hadrian's mausoleum). From what I can gather there never was a Circus of Domitia, however, there was a Circus of Hadrian "behind" Hadrian's tomb, and it is that circus that is outlined in Nolli's map (a map incidently that Piranesi also worked on with Nolli). Piranesi delineates both the Circus of Hadrian and the Circus of Domitia within the Ichnographia as part of an elaborate Bustum Hadriani within the Horti Domitia (this garden is mentioned in Plattner's text, which you have at your online site). Piranesi inverts his reference to the two circuses -- inversion is a big key to understanding the narrative of the Ichnographia. [The Circus of Domitian is separately delineated correctly within the Ichnographia, but is given the later (but also correct) name 'Circus Agonalia sive Alevander Serveri' -- Alexander Serverus rebuilt the Circus of Domitian and dedicated it to Janus, today's Piazza Navona, as you know. Did you know that the second Agonalia, 21 May, is the same date as the combined feast day of Constantine and Helena in the Eastern Orthodox Church? -- I don't think this is exactly an accident!]
There are 325 buildings listed and notated within the 'Catalogo'. Most of the listing are of the length like the 'Aja di Marti' sample. There are about a dozen or so entries the length of the Sepulcher of Maria. The Circus of Domtia entry is typical in length of something like 30-40 of the overall entries.
It seems that the translation would be very costly (easily several thousand dollars), and I doubt that I could afford it. Would you be interested in working together if I didnot sell the translation, but rather treated the project as an online collaborative effort between Lacus Curtius and Quondam? I am still going to publish Arcana Ichnographiae Campi Martii, but including the 'Catalogo' is not really necessary. Having a translation of the 'Catalogo' would however insure I do not make any mistakes in my interpretation of Piranesi's plan.
As you can well imagine, what fascinates me about Piranesi's Campo Mazio is that there is so much data there, and, moreover, data that has been more or less ignored because his large plan of the Campo Marzio appears completely fantastic, utter fantasy. I've found that one has to really look at all the data before a valid judgement can be made. For me, Piranesi compiled on of the most unique archaeological texts of all time, unlike any product that would be produced today.
Anyway, what I thought I'd do is pick out those 'Catalogo' entries that are most relevant to Piranesi's "secrets". And, if it is ok with you, I'll send them to you, and you can then let me know what you would like in return for translating them.
Regardless of the future outcome, the last two days of correspondence have provided me with much knowledge and pleasure, and again you have my gratitude, as well as full acknoledgement.
"P. Vitt nella Reg." is listed regularly throughout the 'Catalogo', but is sometimes written out more fully as "Sesto Rufo, e P. Vittore nelle Regioni di Roma". My guess has up to now been that this is some later publication of the 4th century Regionary Catalog, ie, the NOTITIA as seen at Lacus Curtius (a list, by the way, that I thought I might never actually see until I found it at your site).
pss I'll gladly send you by post a photocopy of the 'Catalogo' that I have. Actually, I'll send you a photocopy of all the text. I have a feeling you'll find it all very fascinating.
Piranesi Campo Marzio in 2 states
Dear John Wilton-Ely:
After spending over ten year redrawing Piranesi's Ichnographia Campi Martii utilizing CAD, I finally (on 14 May, 1999) went to the University of Pennsylvania's Fine Arts Library to see an original Ichnographia. I had been using a poster of the Ichnographia as the source of my redrawing, but I never saw an original of the large plan. To my astonishment, I found that the plan that I had been used to looking at, and indeed the plan as it is most often published, e.g., in your The Complete Etchings, is distinctly different in certain areas than the plan within the U of P's original Campo Marzio tome. I had documented the differences in April 2000, and published the differences online at www.quondam.com.
My question to you is whether anyone else has, to your knowledge, discovered that the Ichnographia Campi Martii has two states. I have yet to come across any such record. In fact, the only reference that comes close is within your The Complete Etchings, where, within the "List of G.B. Piranesi's Published Works," by Arthur M. Hind, there is noted a later(?) edition of the Campo Marzio in Thomas Ashby's collection that has only Italian text. It would be interesting to see whether the Ichnographia within Ashby's copy is of the first or second state.
I am not going to disclose here what and where the differences within the Ichnographia are, but I will say that the plan as most often published is not the original plan. At this point, I am personally satisfied in having 'discovered' the two states of the Ichnographia, but, since I am not an academic, I am not in a position to further research when the plan was altered, nor who altered the plan, nor even why the plan was altered (-- although I do have some preliminary theories). Answers to those questions might be something you could investigate. In any case, it appears The Complete Etchings is just a tad shy of being truly complete.
Re: Piranesi Campo Marzio in 2 states
Dear Stephen Lauf,
I was fascinated to find your e-mail message regarding your new work on Piranesi's 'Ichnographia' on my return from teaching and reseraching in Italy.
First of all, I must congratulate you on what appears to be a remarkable discovery. I was certainly unaware of another version of the plan although I recall Hind's mention of the existence of the Ashby volume (probably still in the possession of the British School at Rome where he was Director). Naturally, I look forward to the publication of your work on the Ichnographia in August 2001 and, naturally, with regard to what you term 'lines of mutual respect', will treat in strict confidence anything you care to mention in advance.
My intention in publishing the Complete Etchings was not only to make Piranesi's amazing range of achievements easily available to a variety of disciplines and enquirers but to encourage further research and new discoveries like your own. I have never imagined that I had drawn the line below a definitive list of graphic works but one has to establish the 'core' corpus, even if there are bound to be discoveries in the future.
In the meantime, I imagine you will already be familiar with my 1983 paper on the 'Ichnographia', delivered at the Venice Piranesi Bicentenary conference in 1978. If you cannot get access to it, I would be delighted to send you a photocopy if you let me have your address in due course.
With best wishes,